Leinster v Salarysins

[blaker]

On back row, I am now inclined to agree with those that argue Conan doesn’t have it at the top level.

I think - under these rules - that poaching needs to be almost top of the criteria list but it’s also fairly clear that we don’t play to compete currently, prioritising numbers in the line.

Connors is known as a tackle machine, does he bring other qualities?

I think Doris has to be assumed - on a small sample - to be our big game starting 6. In a “grunt” game could you play Ruddock there and move Doris to 8.
If Leavy the-establishes himself he has to be our big game starting 7.

[neiliog93]

They really need to do something about it. If they insist on a stricter implementation of the jackal rule in the name of safety, they might have to start giving a free kick instead of a penalty for the holding on offence in order to disincentivise a lot of kicking and defensive play. You could even add a caveat that teams were only allowed to run or kick from the free-kick to avoid excessive scrums.

I think there's a simpler solution than that - you just allow a mark anywhere on the field. So if you put up a high ball and the guy catches it clean [almost inevitably behind his entire team] he can call a mark and get a freekick whether he's in his own 22, on the halfway line or in the opponent's half.

That would even out the risk/reward. At the moment the odds are stacked on the kicker's side - you can stretch out a ruck [caterpillar] to lessen the chances of being blocked down to practically nil; you can stall in that position for 5-10 seconds to organise the chase; all your players are coming on to the ball [literally every single one of them], so you can compete not to catch it but to bat it backwards ... an option not open to the opposition. Even if you knock it on and give away a scrum, you're likely 15-20m further up the pitch from where you were when you kicked.

Allowing a mark for a clean catch anywhere makes good fullback play more valuable and punishes bad kicking. It more equably balances the risk/reward for the kicking side, who have chosen to kick the ball away in an 'invasion game' [which is what rugby is classed as]. It only expands the extent of something that is already in the laws of the game.

At the moment the box kick is too much of a factor, and it's probably the most tedious thing in rugby. It's not just tedious when Saracens beat us with it, it's tedious when Munster lose to us with it. You don't have to ban it, you just lessen its attractiveness.

The threat of the jackal in other situations might lead to more offloading, which would be a positive thing.

This is a good idea and possibly part of the solution, but doesn't address the problem of it being excessively difficult for the attacking team to go through phases (thereby both incentivising kicking and punishing ambitious teams, especially those who attack from deep). The holding on penalty should still be reduced to a free-kick (possibly with no scrum option) IMO.

[Wanderers FC]

On back row, I am now inclined to agree with those that argue Conan doesn’t have it at the top level.

I think - under these rules - that poaching needs to be almost top of the criteria list but it’s also fairly clear that we don’t play to compete currently, prioritising numbers in the line.

Connors is known as a tackle machine, does he bring other qualities?

I think Doris has to be assumed - on a small sample - to be our big game starting 6. In a “grunt” game could you play Ruddock there and move Doris to 8.
If Leavy the-establishes himself he has to be our big game starting 7.

I think you’ve hit on area that deserves scrutiny here. Not committing players to the breakdown has a time and a place. Fanning across the park works if you have big men filling the line. When a team is not physically dominant in defence it can serve a team well to have a fetcher.

Look at Toulouse today. They had several of their forwards simply picking off Ulster at will on the deck. Having a poacher can turn the momentum of games or sap the life out of an opposition but it’s not a skill that lives solely on its own. It must be combined with attacking defence.

Poaching teams can turn games on their head but not contesting the breakdown requires energy being spent elsewhere, namely absorbing attack after attack. If you are not forcing the attacking team back in defence it can be tiring and requires patience.

I think having a groundhog 7 negates energy being spent elsewhere and gives a team a lifeline in close games where the there is a war for the gainline. Do we have that player? I think we need to work on it.

[leinsterforever]

Pick holes in everything but we got so badly mauled in the scrum it's pretty irrelevant. Testament to the lads to keep it that close with no scrum.

When a team has a scrum as dominant as Saracens' yesterday they will nearly always win. Shades of Ireland v England in 2008 about it. I can't remember an example of a team winning despite being destroyed in almost every scrum.

However, we didn't help ourselves: Connors and Doris were clearly told to be alert to the quick break from 8 and/or to put pressure on 10. Look at the two scrums just before half time right on half way. Connors has an arm draped over the secondrow and is standing straight up looking to see will Billy have a rumble. However, he was never going to. Opposite him, the Saracens man has a tight bind and has his shoulder driving right under the arse of the tighthead. That scrum was always going to be milked for a penalty. When we're already going backwards having a 6 man scrum defend against 8 is impossible.

Interesting point. Saracens are such a cunning team. When you load up to try to stop one threat they attack somewhere else that's been weakened.

The example that springs to mind of a team winning in spite of getting destroyed in the scrum is Munster's 36-51 win against Northampton that time Zebo got a hat trick https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xo38hh

[leinsterforever]

Sarries were so impressively relentless, everything we did was under pressure. Literally right from the kick off. We had lot of handling error turnovers and poor maul return but cant look past the utter dominance at scrum time as the major factor in the game. We've seen this play out now for both ireland and leinster, i struggle to see what we can do to counter or overcome it with out going to the market. Is it a lot it just down to them being bigger guys?? I dont think we're in Tom Court in Twickenham territory, we have quality, international props, and lots of experience too. A fit Tadhgy Furlong would have helped no doubt, but dont if it would have made a difference. Andrew Porter was the only 1 of our 8 that was bigger/heavier than his opposite number. Can technique/approach alone over come this? I think Salanoa may have been pilot project to counter.
Have seen it said above that maybe Doris and Connors, were more concerned watching Billy V break than pushing, would suggest we were prepared to concede there. Odd tactic to stick with, given the way the way the setup piece was going. Really, we were fortunate to avoid a yellow card which could have put us on track for a real hiding.
Tangental point, also raised above is leadership and personality in the scrum. Didnt notice anyone even attempt to speak to the ref to plead our case or suggest looking at them driving in like you would imagine one of Rhys or Fardy would have done if there. It an intangible thing really, but would like to see someone emerge as an obvious personality or leader of the pack like POC or AWJ or even George yesterday. Dont seem like we have the personalities for that, not yet anyway.

Very disappointing finish, but we go again. New format next season poses a new challenge and hopefully lessons to learn. Shame not to get to give the guys leaving/finishing a send off.

In peacetime, all of this would have been vented over post-game beers, albeit less eloquently.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

Yes. The Japan U20s dominated a French pack supposedly 72kg heavier a few years ago



It's nearly all about coaching, for me. Saracens are obviously excellently coached in this area to work as one and be cynical when necessary - pushing early before the ball came in one time and then pulling back when Leinster tried the same to milk the penalty. The degree to which the eight players coordinate as a unit depends on the quality of the coaching. Leinster and Ireland had a first-rate guy in Feek for a long time. Look at what Marc dal Maso did with the Japanese scrum:

[hugonaut]

Sarries were so impressively relentless, everything we did was under pressure. Literally right from the kick off. We had lot of handling error turnovers and poor maul return but cant look past the utter dominance at scrum time as the major factor in the game. We've seen this play out now for both ireland and leinster, i struggle to see what we can do to counter or overcome it with out going to the market. Is it a lot it just down to them being bigger guys?? I dont think we're in Tom Court in Twickenham territory, we have quality, international props, and lots of experience too. A fit Tadhgy Furlong would have helped no doubt, but dont if it would have made a difference. Andrew Porter was the only 1 of our 8 that was bigger/heavier than his opposite number. Can technique/approach alone over come this? I think Salanoa may have been pilot project to counter.
Have seen it said above that maybe Doris and Connors, were more concerned watching Billy V break than pushing, would suggest we were prepared to concede there. Odd tactic to stick with, given the way the way the setup piece was going. Really, we were fortunate to avoid a yellow card which could have put us on track for a real hiding.
Tangental point, also raised above is leadership and personality in the scrum. Didnt notice anyone even attempt to speak to the ref to plead our case or suggest looking at them driving in like you would imagine one of Rhys or Fardy would have done if there. It an intangible thing really, but would like to see someone emerge as an obvious personality or leader of the pack like POC or AWJ or even George yesterday. Dont seem like we have the personalities for that, not yet anyway.

Very disappointing finish, but we go again. New format next season poses a new challenge and hopefully lessons to learn. Shame not to get to give the guys leaving/finishing a send off.

In peacetime, all of this would have been vented over post-game beers, albeit less eloquently.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

Excellent points Chengleng1. I agree that Salanoa was a project for us, hence Leo's irritation at a] him going back on his word and b] Munster poaching him. We had put a lot of time and effort into training him from a very low base, accommodating him and overseeing his development, and we have got nothing from it.

This was a really hard lesson, and it hasn't happened to us in a long time. But it's not the first time it has happened to us. We got plowed in the scrum by Toulouse in Toulouse in the 2009-10 semi-final [link: https://www.espn.com/rugby/playerstats? ... gue=271937 ] and it went a long way to losing us the match. But we were able to fix it for the next season.

The only thing we can take from it is a renewed emphasis and focus on scrummaging in training. It's one thing seeing it happen in a big game [i.e. the World Cup final], it's another thing when it happens to you in a big game. Nobody in the organisation is going to forget that for a long time and it should prove a big spur to not just the players who were on the pitch, but lads like Furlong, Dooley, Milne and Clarkson.

[neiliog93]

Scrummaging is both size/strength, and technique. If you are technically superior to a stronger opponent in the front row, you will likely win the scrum battle. That's what we see above with Japan.

But what happens if both sets of front-rows/packs are technically adept and well-coached? Then, in most cases, the bigger/stronger/more powerful team will win the scrum battle. Also remember that a prop who is 115kg may have more 'power' in some cases than another prop who is 125kg,due to superior innate athleticism and possibly also having a lower body-fat percentage. So, while weight may be helpful in its own right, it's more about power.

Very, very few players are equal in terms of power to Mako Vunipola, Koch, George, and then Itoje in the second-row. Three of the four would mount an at least credible challenge for a place in a World XV, and Koch is a world cup winner.

[ronk]

Scrummaging is both size/strength, and technique. If you are technically superior to a stronger opponent in the front row, you will likely win the scrum battle. That's what we see above with Japan.

But what happens if both sets of front-rows/packs are technically adept and well-coached? Then, in most cases, the bigger/stronger/more powerful team will win the scrum battle. Also remember that a prop who is 115kg may have more 'power' in some cases than another prop who is 125kg,due to superior innate athleticism and possibly also having a lower body-fat percentage. So, while weight may be helpful in its own right, it's more about power.

Very, very few players are equal in terms of power to Mako Vunipola, Koch, George, and then Itoje in the second-row. Three of the four would mount an at least credible challenge for a place in a World XV, and Koch is a world cup winner.

And application.

[dropkick]

I thought leinster played well for the most part. Lots of good performances but it was just the few keys areas that were very costly.


I thought Keenan was very good and maybe should be given the chance at fullback. Hes calm and composed which is important for a fullback while Larmour is more instinctive and might be better off as a winger where he might get more one on one opportunities to use his great footwork.


Baird was super impressive when he came on. You want your subs making an impact and he really put it up to Saracens.

[desperado]

Sarries were so impressively relentless, everything we did was under pressure. Literally right from the kick off. We had lot of handling error turnovers and poor maul return but cant look past the utter dominance at scrum time as the major factor in the game. We've seen this play out now for both ireland and leinster, i struggle to see what we can do to counter or overcome it with out going to the market. Is it a lot it just down to them being bigger guys?? I dont think we're in Tom Court in Twickenham territory, we have quality, international props, and lots of experience too. A fit Tadhgy Furlong would have helped no doubt, but dont if it would have made a difference. Andrew Porter was the only 1 of our 8 that was bigger/heavier than his opposite number. Can technique/approach alone over come this? I think Salanoa may have been pilot project to counter.
Have seen it said above that maybe Doris and Connors, were more concerned watching Billy V break than pushing, would suggest we were prepared to concede there. Odd tactic to stick with, given the way the way the setup piece was going. Really, we were fortunate to avoid a yellow card which could have put us on track for a real hiding.
Tangental point, also raised above is leadership and personality in the scrum. Didnt notice anyone even attempt to speak to the ref to plead our case or suggest looking at them driving in like you would imagine one of Rhys or Fardy would have done if there. It an intangible thing really, but would like to see someone emerge as an obvious personality or leader of the pack like POC or AWJ or even George yesterday. Dont seem like we have the personalities for that, not yet anyway.

Very disappointing finish, but we go again. New format next season poses a new challenge and hopefully lessons to learn. Shame not to get to give the guys leaving/finishing a send off.

In peacetime, all of this would have been vented over post-game beers, albeit less eloquently.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

Excellent points Chengleng1. I agree that Salanoa was a project for us, hence Leo's irritation at a] him going back on his word and b] Munster poaching him. We had put a lot of time and effort into training him from a very low base, accommodating him and overseeing his development, and we have got nothing from it.

This was a really hard lesson, and it hasn't happened to us in a long time. But it's not the first time it has happened to us. We got plowed in the scrum by Toulouse in Toulouse in the 2009-10 semi-final [link: https://www.espn.com/rugby/playerstats? ... gue=271937 ] and it went a long way to losing us the match. But we were able to fix it for the next season.

The only thing we can take from it is a renewed emphasis and focus on scrummaging in training. It's one thing seeing it happen in a big game [i.e. the World Cup final], it's another thing when it happens to you in a big game. Nobody in the organisation is going to forget that for a long time and it should prove a big spur to not just the players who were on the pitch, but lads like Furlong, Dooley, Milne and Clarkson.

We also got mullered in the scrum by Northampton during the first half of the 2011 final. It was a real worry but completely turned around 2nd half. Greg Feek....

[Twist]

Just after re-watching it without adrenalin and it’s changed my view a bit. Before the game I was pessimistic about our pack and felt like Id been vindicated. But actually we contributed hugely to our own problems, and we matched them physically in open play in the second half. However, our scrum (as noted) and decision making killed us. Turning down points was so obviously wrong its infuriating.

How can our lineout be so poor? Why did we persist with the maul instead of just taking three points and getting the ball back?

And yeah, the new laws will be a big problem for us

[Up Wexford]

Everyone seems to be drilling down on the scrum, and yes thats true, but for the few brave souls who have watched it back, was it not a total pig of a game from Leinster? You play that game ten times and honesty nine of those times Leinster are going to win. Saracens are not world beaters by any means in their current state and if Racing 92 are competent theyll beat them - whether they are competent or not is the question. Thats the real sickener. They targeted Lowe at the start, thats not really rocket science, and unfortunately it was a calamity of errors from there. Saracens had six good players perform - Koch, George, Mako, Itoje, Rhodes, Daly, played no rugby and beat us. Sickener.

[Dave Cahill]

We've played it three times and lost twice so...

[riocard911]

I've just rewatched it for my sins. We didn't start with intensity. They did. How does that work? The match is in Dublin. Everyone knows what's at stake and the visitors are the one's playing for their lives? I don't care for Saracens. I hate the gloating and mocking of the opposition they indulge in. That said, they went out to do a job on us - and they relished doing it. In his autobiography BO'D writes how to be a successful rugby player, one has to enjoy inflicting pain. I agree with him 100%. Only two players on our team looked like they wanted to hurt and seriously impose themselves on Saracens - James Ryan and Ryan Baird. Michael Rhodes, the guy who took out Johnny? He got MOTM. That's what it takes and we didn't have it.

[suisse]

About Jordan Larmour, he did 2 ridiculous things in the first half that led to 10 points. Luke McGrath's pass was shocking to him but I can't understand why he crabbed 5 steps left and then passed to Henshaw. No awareness of where the defenders were, no awereness of what his best options are. There was space to his left, did he really not see the Saracens midfield charging up? McGrath's horrible loopy pass allowed Saracens to rush up, and Larmour taking more time allowed then to advance further. By the time Henshaw had received the ball Leinster had gone back 20 yards from the ruck. Just inviting trouble and Larmour allowed it.

Then for the try. It was a really, really good try but why was Larmour beaten by a dummy thrown in his direction? He wasn't facing straight on to Goode. He was arriving from his right shoulder to make an expected tackle. Goode dummied to Larmour, he bought it, and he stopped running. Saracens were in firmly in attack and may have scored anyway, but buying that dummy was terrible work.

Luke McGrath. 27 years old and Leinster's first choice 9 and often stand in captain for quite a while. But his performance was expected. Indecisive, error ridden, lacking control and leadership. Completely outplayed by a retiring 37 year old. The pass to Larmour was utterly braindead. Looping a ball 15 meters backwards. Did he expect Larmour to kick? Into a strong wind? McGrath has far, far too many games like this. Always a decent 9 in the RDS against weak Pro14 opposition. Scores a try. The problem is the 3 younger guys. For me, McGrath and Park are not good enough to block the development of an outstanding young 9. But if he's still undisputed 9 at this point, I think the management are unconvinced about those coming next.

[backrower8]

About Jordan Larmour, he did 2 ridiculous things in the first half that led to 10 points. Luke McGrath's pass was shocking to him but I can't understand why he crabbed 5 steps left and then passed to Henshaw. No awareness of where the defenders were, no awereness of what his best options are. There was space to his left, did he really not see the Saracens midfield charging up? McGrath's horrible loopy pass allowed Saracens to rush up, and Larmour taking more time allowed then to advance further. By the time Henshaw had received the ball Leinster had gone back 20 yards from the ruck. Just inviting trouble and Larmour allowed it.

Then for the try. It was a really, really good try but why was Larmour beaten by a dummy thrown in his direction? He wasn't facing straight on to Goode. He was arriving from his right shoulder to make an expected tackle. Goode dummied to Larmour, he bought it, and he stopped running. Saracens were in firmly in attack and may have scored anyway, but buying that dummy was terrible work.

Luke McGrath. 27 years old and Leinster's first choice 9 and often stand in captain for quite a while. But his performance was expected. Indecisive, error ridden, lacking control and leadership. Completely outplayed by a retiring 37 year old. The pass to Larmour was utterly braindead. Looping a ball 15 meters backwards. Did he expect Larmour to kick? Into a strong wind? McGrath has far, far too many games like this. Always a decent 9 in the RDS against weak Pro14 opposition. Scores a try. The problem is the 3 younger guys. For me, McGrath and Park are not good enough to block the development of an outstanding young 9. But if he's still undisputed 9 at this point, I think the management are unconvinced about those coming next.

+1

[hugonaut]

I thought leinster played well for the most part. Lots of good performances but it was just the few keys areas that were very costly.


I thought Keenan was very good and maybe should be given the chance at fullback. Hes calm and composed which is important for a fullback while Larmour is more instinctive and might be better off as a winger where he might get more one on one opportunities to use his great footwork.


Baird was super impressive when he came on. You want your subs making an impact and he really put it up to Saracens.

Leinster were pretty dreadful in the first half. They played indecisive, error-strewn rugby for about 37 of 40 minutes. I have no idea how you can think they 'played well for the most part.'

[fourthirtythree]

Generosity of spirit.

But yeah. No. Leinster were poor. Not mentally there, out thought and out fought. You can't have that against Saracens.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

I've just rewatched it for my sins. We didn't start with intensity. They did. How does that work? The match is in Dublin. Everyone knows what's at stake and the visitors are the one's playing for their lives? I don't care for Saracens. I hate the gloating and mocking of the opposition they indulge in. That said, they went out to do a job on us - and they relished doing it. In his autobiography BO'D writes how to be a successful rugby player, one has to enjoy inflicting pain. I agree with him 100%. Only two players on our team looked like they wanted to hurt and seriously impose themselves on Saracens - James Ryan and Ryan Baird. Michael Rhodes, the guy who took out Johnny? He got MOTM. That's what it takes and we didn't have it.

I’ve heard that we were nervous before the game, and it was immediately obvious when Conan dropped the kick off.

Same thing happened against the Scarlets in 2017 after we’d lost to Clermont.

[MylesNaGapoleen]

So, the win on Saturday was driven by "the determination to show that their recent success was not down to salary cap breaches" according to wigglesworth

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... mpions-cup

They planned for this one-off game for weeks, if not months. Fair play, they got the selection and tactics right, including how to play the refs interpretations of the laws better than us but am I alone in thinking this is taking it a bit too far?
True, there is no salary cap in europe, but, I think they are stretching it a bit here.