Leinster Squad 20-21

[cormac]

I'd expect Leo has a plan of who'll be featuring in each match with the less experienced players penciled in for specific matches.

We could use Toner, Fardy and Molony as the second rows in all of the next 6 games but I'd expect both Jack Dunne and Charlie Ryan to feature at times, even if the other three are fit.

I'd be surprised if we don't see a few uncapped players feature in the next few matches. Charlie Ryan, Dan Sheehan (if fit), David Hawkshaw and Michael Silvester would be my guesses.

[D4surfer]

We have some tricky games in this period too — Glasgow (a), Edinburgh (h) and Scarlets (a) in particular, but Zebre the only game that you’d be shocked if we lost in that bunch.

In fairness, both Glasgow and Edinburgh provide large numbers to the Scotland team. I think our backups are better then what they have.

[cormac]

Ryan Baird will miss the remaining 6N fixtures.

Porter, Sexton and Kelleher should resume training next week.

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2020/10/14/ir ... esumption/

[mildlyinterested]

Dave K in ireland camp.

[hugonaut]

I'd expect Leo has a plan of who'll be featuring in each match with the less experienced players penciled in for specific matches.

We could use Toner, Fardy and Molony as the second rows in all of the next 6 games but I'd expect both Jack Dunne and Charlie Ryan to feature at times, even if the other three are fit.

I'd be surprised if we don't see a few uncapped players feature in the next few matches. Charlie Ryan, Dan Sheehan (if fit), David Hawkshaw and Michael Silvester would be my guesses.

I would love to have an insight into how early Leo picks the outlines of his teams through the season. He knows the structure of the season very well and he looks like he always has a plan for every player on contact, both senior and academy; is it realistic to think that he has basically picked teams for each game from now until Christmas with +/- 6no. players to allow for form, injuries, illness and call-ups?

From my point of view, I think that a significant emphasis will be on the progress of Pete Dooley, Jack Dunne, Michael Milne and Tom Clarkson. Front five forwards do such a tough job and you need so many players capable of playing at a high level over the course of the season. I think all those guys have the potential to be European-level Leinster players – and Dooley has already played in European competition – but it's a case of pushing them now so that they will be ready earlier.

I'm not really concerned about the outside backs. They take so little contact compared to forwards that there shouldn't be any problem with them playing 80 mins week in, week out. That's especially true of guys in their 20s. I wouldn't be worried if we were just played some combination of Locko, Jimmy O'Brien, Cian Kelleher and Tommy O'Brien for the next six weeks, with Silvester and Turner in there as injury cover. Obviously it'd be great to get AB+ and COB back sooner rather than later, but I'm not overly worried about it. For example, [Backs, 9-15:] Luke McGrath, Harry Byrne, Cian Kelleher, Ciaran Frawley, Rory O'Loughlin, Tommy O'Brien, Jimmy O'Brien - that would work for me, or another variation with Frawley at No15 and Locko and JOB in the centres.

Personally speaking, I'm not convinced by any of the scrum-halves outside JGP and McGrath in the set-up at the moment. This is quite off-the-hip criticism, but to me they are too conservative, too reserved, they lack decisiveness, leadership and spark, and can't influence the game. I would have said the same thing about Nick McCarthy [now at Munster]. They're staid, predictable and play like they are too worried about making mistakes.

I heard a phrase recently when watching American coverage of golfer Justin Rose struggling in a tournament: "He's playing golf swing, not playing golf." That's what I feel about O'Sullivan and Osbourne: they're playing scrum-half, not playing rugby.

[mildlyinterested]

you'd wonder why... re: scrumhalf play.

it's a difficult one.. is it coaching, confidence, lack of ability?

[hugonaut]

you'd wonder why... re: scrumhalf play.

it's a difficult one.. is it coaching, confidence, lack of ability?

There is the part that Fanning wrote about relatively recently in the Indo, in that at a young age, coaches put the smallest guy in the team in at No9 and essentially make him a complete servant in the halfback 'partnership'. In Irish rugby, it's the most structurally unequal unit of any of them, i.e. front row, second row, centres etc. The primacy of the outhalf is not just expressed, but stressed. It's not a partnership, it's a master-servant relationship. Imagine if we had a centre partnership where the outside centre made all the calls, decided what to do with the ball all the time and the inside centre's job was just to pass him the ball and not to f*ck up passing him the ball?

Obviously the O'Gara/Stringer relationship was the prime example of this, possibly in the history of the game. It was massively influential for lots of people in Irish rugby, including influential people in Irish rugby, and it shaped the way that a lot of people thought about how the positions should be played. But both Ireland and Munster were more successful when Kidney swapped in Tomas O'Leary for the knock-outs of the 2007-08 Heineken Cup for Munster and the 2009 Six Nations for Ireland. I give Kidney a lot of credit for this, because it was unpopular and adventurous at the time. O'Leary had a way better break than Stringer, a much better kicking game, was way more physical and a much bigger threat to opposition teams. He actually took pressure off O'Gara.

You can play the same position in different ways. Conrad Smith and Jaque Fourie played No13 very differently, for example, but they were both excellent at playing No13. But in Irish rugby [as Fanning wrote] there seems to be a widespread belief that your scrum-half has to play one sort of way, i.e. serve the outhalf.

Outside of that, I think a good bit of it is what Lancaster spoke about a year ago in this interview: https://www.the42.ie/stuart-lancaster-i ... 4-Nov2019/ . I also believe that Sexton can be a really difficult and intimidating team-mate, especially as he has got older and the players around him have got younger. It's not that the younger players that I've mentioned above play with him very often, but they have to train with him every day, and he is a massive presence - captain of Ireland, captain of Leinster, former World Player of the Year etc.

If you've got this walking, talking legend of Irish rugby getting ratty at you on a daily basis because you're not doing exactly what he wants you to do, you're going to lose your confidence. I don't think Cooney would have matured into the same player he is now if he had stayed at Leinster, for example. I also think that Sexton is holding on too tight at the moment and wants to wring every win he can out of his career against the inevitable passage of time, and it's not making him play better, but worse. He has had more bad games in the last two years [2019 and 2020] than he had in the previous decade.

With regards the future, I like the look of the St Michael's scrumhalf Gilsenan, primarily because a] he's good; and b] he is so different from the sort of young scrum-halves that we have been taking into the academy.

EDIT: for clarity

[mildlyinterested]

Yeah I can see that.. personally I don't think leinster's young 9's have played enough rugby between 19 and 22 to develop.

Patterson, HOS & Foley haven't played 9 consistently at AIL level and given they weren't primarily 9's in their school years, that's an issue.

I hope Gilsenan makes the academy.. not sure if he will though.

James Kenny was going very well for Lansdowne before the break, same age group as Patterson and HOS and another not sitting the typical 9 profile.

[hugonaut]

Yeah I can see that.. personally I don't think leinster's young 9's have played enough rugby between 19 and 22 to develop.

Patterson, HOS & Foley haven't played 9 consistently at AIL level and given they weren't primarily 9's in their school years, that's an issue.

I hope Gilsenan makes the academy.. not sure if he will though.

I agree 100% on that. The most important aspect of the position is decision-making, and games present you with way more decision-making circumstances than training does. There is way more randomness, and that is something that scrum-halves just have to deal with. They have to be able to thrive in chaos.

[mildlyinterested]

Yeah I can see that.. personally I don't think leinster's young 9's have played enough rugby between 19 and 22 to develop.

Patterson, HOS & Foley haven't played 9 consistently at AIL level and given they weren't primarily 9's in their school years, that's an issue.

I hope Gilsenan makes the academy.. not sure if he will though.

I agree 100% on that. The most important aspect of the position is decision-making, and games present you with way more decision-making circumstances than training does. There is way more randomness, and that is something that scrum-halves just have to deal with. They have to be able to thrive in chaos.

less likely to play behind a dominant pack too.. not sure that applies as much when playing for Leinster A.

[mildlyinterested]

dbl post

[leinsterforever]

It's the opposite in France. The scrumhalf is the more important player and France haven't had much success developing good outhalves over the last 20 years.

It's a bit strange we didn't see Patterson at all last season. I quite liked the look of him. He seemed to be modelling himself a bit on JGP. There was one game where he threw a cut out pass from the base for someone to score in the corner just like Gibson-Park does.

I haven't been too impressed with HOS in the little I've seen of him. Based on what I saw, I thought it looked as if he was signed up more for his character and leadership than his playing ability, but hopefully that proves to be an inaccurate assessment.

They'll have to make some decisions soon enough. There's not enough gametime to go around between HOS, Patterson and Cormac Foley.

[Wanderers FC]

It's the opposite in France. The scrumhalf is the more important player and France haven't had much success developing good outhalves over the last 20 years.

It's a bit strange we didn't see Patterson at all last season. I quite liked the look of him. He seemed to be modelling himself a bit on JGP. There was one game where he threw a cut out pass from the base for someone to score in the corner just like Gibson-Park does.

I haven't been too impressed with HOS in the little I've seen of him. Based on what I saw, I thought it looked as if he was signed up more for his character and leadership than his playing ability, but hopefully that proves to be an inaccurate assessment.

They'll have to make some decisions soon enough. There's not enough gametime to go around between HOS, Patterson and Cormac Foley.

France have a few good flyhalves coming through in Ntamack Carbonel Jallibert and the Stade Francais new fly half forget his name but it’s not Sanchez. Agreed though they produce far more high level scrum halves.

Agreed on the cut out pass - I would say it’s almost a core skill needed of any scrum half nowadays. If a SH doesn’t have that string to his bow the team are significantly weakened. Luke doesn’t have and it limits our attack where fast wide ball can create gaps and line breaks.

As far as Leinster is concerned there is a significant weakness in developing competent scrum halves. None of the players bar Patterson have looked up to the grade and I would include Kenny and Gilsenan in that statement. The question is why aren’t we producing them. We haven’t seen any standouts from any of the schools over the past 10 years so it’s becoming a problem position for us.

[mildlyinterested]

odd to say that Patterson has looked upto the grade and others haven't.. when exactly did this occur?

Gilsenan was excellent for Michaels in 6th year, as was Kenny for Zaga. So to say there has been no standout 9's in schools rugby in a decade, well I wouldn't agree. Kenny struggled with injury out of school, as did Gilsenan last season.

Conor Duggan and Oisin Devitt were standout 9's last season in the cup.

[Wanderers FC]

odd to say that Patterson has looked upto the grade and others haven't.. when exactly did this occur?

Gilsenan was excellent for Michaels in 6th year, as was Kenny for Zaga. So to say there has been no standout 9's in schools rugby in a decade, well I wouldn't agree. Kenny struggled with injury out of school, as did Gilsenan last season.

Conor Duggan and Oisin Devitt were standout 9's last season in the cup.

Patterson looked by far the best of the young scrum halves that have played in recent years and there are a good few people on here would agree with me. So it happened the past 2/3 seasons but you obviously have your preferences and won’t be convinced otherwise.

I’m looking for players to show they have potential to be good European or international standard. We haven’t had any in Leinster even going back to Reddan and before him.

Patterson has shown glimpses of vision to exploit space when he played. None of the other young players have shown that attribute IMO including Gilsenan and he hasn’t even played pro yet.

Measuring players from schools rugby as a metric for good young scrum halves can be a fools errand. There can be years where the standard is way below that of other years.
But you seem intent on hyping Gilsenan and Kenny who was slow and only had a good boxkick for me at schools.

When you get too close in to the schools game it’s hard to see the woods from the trees and what is seemingly a class player flops in the pro game. Any player can do a job but I’d be looking for that something extra to separate a good pro from an average pro.

[mildlyinterested]

odd to say that Patterson has looked upto the grade and others haven't.. when exactly did this occur?

Gilsenan was excellent for Michaels in 6th year, as was Kenny for Zaga. So to say there has been no standout 9's in schools rugby in a decade, well I wouldn't agree. Kenny struggled with injury out of school, as did Gilsenan last season.

Conor Duggan and Oisin Devitt were standout 9's last season in the cup.

Patterson looked by far the best of the young scrum halves that have played in recent years and there are a good few people on here would agree with me. So it happened the past 2/3 seasons but you obviously have your preferences and won’t be convinced otherwise.

I’m looking for players to show they have potential to be good European or international standard. We haven’t had any in Leinster even going back to Reddan and before him.

Patterson has shown glimpses of vision to exploit space when he played. None of the other young players have shown that attribute IMO including Gilsenan and he hasn’t even played pro yet.

Measuring players from schools rugby as a metric for good young scrum halves can be a fools errand. There can be years where the standard is way below that of other years.
But you seem intent on hyping Gilsenan and Kenny who was slow and only had a good boxkick for me at schools.

When you get too close in to the schools game it’s hard to see the woods from the trees and what is seemingly a class player flops in the pro game. Any player can do a job but I’d be looking for that something extra to separate a good pro from an average pro.

In his some total of 41 minutes with the senior side he has looked by far the best? interesting.

You'd wonder if he was so much better than the rest why he has played so little for the seniors and has been behind O'Sullivan since leaving school and Osborne last season.

Reddan wasn't a "good european standard" scrumhalf

I should have just stopped reading after that gem.

Hope you are right about Patterson but there hasn't much to suggest he will be an international level scrumhalf or even a "good european" level one.

[wixfjord]

Hold on, are you saying that 71 times capped, triple Heineken Cup winner (all as a starter) Eoin Reddan wasn't a 'Good European standard' Mildly?

Or am I mis-reading that?!

[mildlyinterested]

Hold on, are you saying that 71 times capped, triple Heineken Cup winner (all as a starter) Eoin Reddan wasn't a 'Good European standard' Mildly?

Or am I mis-reading that?!

i'm not saying it, he is.

I’m looking for players to show they have potential to be good European or international standard. We haven’t had any in Leinster even going back to Reddan and before him.

[Wanderers FC]

Hold on, are you saying that 71 times capped, triple Heineken Cup winner (all as a starter) Eoin Reddan wasn't a 'Good European standard' Mildly?

Or am I mis-reading that?!

.

Reddan wasn’t Leinster produced. Even if he was he had the good fortune of being in a team of great European players. Was he of European standard - yes. Was he one of the best scrum halves in Europe at the time - my memory isn’t great but I doubt it. Was he one of the better players in the team - he wasn’t one of the stars but he did a job. He’s probably walk onto the current Leinster team but I think Gibson Park has a better pass. He wasn’t a passenger but he didn’t set the world alight either. Anyway he wasn’t Leinster produced so that’s what I meant by it.

[OTT]

I’m looking for players to show they have potential to be good European or international standard. We haven’t had any in Leinster even going back to Reddan and before him.

Luke McGrath helped us win a European Cup and has played 19 times for Ireland. I never understand why we choose to rewrite history because someone has had a bad game or is not the flavour of the month. He is only 27.